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Post by p00p on Jul 8, 2010 12:15:48 GMT -7
^ Winmo 6.5 with HTC Sense pwns all in navigation (of course, that's prolly all it pwns) imo.
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Jackdruid
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Post by Jackdruid on Jul 8, 2010 12:31:06 GMT -7
Navigation was the number 1 pro of Android on that link you posted. I thought you meant in navigation amongst the apps, in the OS, etc. Here's what I'm seeing when I read Remy's posts: Android really does more than iOS at this point (turn-by-turn navigation, wireless tethering, Google Voice, Widgets, Swype, etc.). You just have more options as to what you can do with Android. iPhone's interface is prettier/shinier than Android (though I would argue that anyone claiming Android's interface is less intuitive or functional is looking at life through Jobs colored glasses. Certainly you can prefer one over the other, but that does not connote superiority). Ultimately, it seems that Remy is OK with an ecosystem that does less as long as it does it prettier - and the fact that you're used to it and are fairly invested in it already ($ on hardware and apps, time in getting your life synced up with this tech) has to be a part of your stubbornness as well
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Post by p00p on Jul 8, 2010 12:44:52 GMT -7
^ Winmo 6.5 with HTC Sense pwns all in navigation (of course, that's prolly all it pwns) imo. i thought about UI navigation too.. my bad for not reading. fail.
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Remy
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Post by Remy on Jul 8, 2010 12:59:13 GMT -7
Whoa wait! Did you just call me out? So either you don't read well or I haven't been clear but I'm sure I've made this argument before, but since you tossed the gauntlet I'll repeat it. There is one, only one reason why I believe iPhone from the original to 4 hands down beats every Android phone on the market today. When you create hardware and software to work with each other you build a better experience. That is why my battery is better. That is why the app store is better. That is why when apple releases a front facing camera it actually does something. Subjective? Yes it is. That is a software engineering principle I will always live by. So yes I live in a walled garden. How is the weed patch that is Android (Ryan quote).
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Post by Mathazar on Jul 8, 2010 13:53:39 GMT -7
Doesn't the front facing cam on the iphone 4 only work to chat with other iphone 4 users? Plus you may want to wait to see how all this iphone 4 hardware/software issues pan out before you talk about how much better an experience it is now.
The argument repeated her leaves out one thing you have said time and time again, os fragmentation. You've often said that fragmentation might be bad for Android (You may have said will be bad, but that not how I remember it).
Well now you've got alot of iphone uses on ios 3.1, the ipad on ios3.2 and the new one on ios4. I'm reading that alot of developers are not happy about the issues they are seeing trying to code for 3 different versions. Plus they are complaining about the lack of lead time to prepare for ios4.
Sounds to me like the utopia that is being a idev is not all it's cracked up to be.
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Remy
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Post by Remy on Jul 8, 2010 14:31:18 GMT -7
iPhones and iPads are two completely different devices and imo a program that runs on the iphone should not run the same on a ipad or you did it wrong.
Fragmentation to me means that as google is releasing 2.2 and in Q4 3.0 new devices are still using 2.1 and 1.8. So that a developer who writes for the current market needs to write for all.
As for this reception issue I'll say the same thing I told p00p, there appears to be a problem with the iphone 4 that some people have and that a majority perceive it to be a big problem for alot of people, however, the evidence does not support the perception.
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Post by bl00k on Jul 8, 2010 19:54:21 GMT -7
My bro has the EVO and I got to see it a little this week. I also saw him change the battery out many many times.
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Post by Mathazar on Jul 8, 2010 23:51:44 GMT -7
My bro has the EVO and I got to see it a little this week. I also saw him change the battery out many many times. Yeah the evo's battery life is a bit of a problem. And he never saw you change your battery out, well because you can't.
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Post by bl00k on Jul 9, 2010 0:45:47 GMT -7
But I mean we were sitting in the living room chatting and he was changing out the battery. And then like 30 min later he was swapping it out again. It was nuts.
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Jackdruid
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Post by Jackdruid on Jul 9, 2010 8:14:46 GMT -7
When you create hardware and software to work with each other you build a better experience. "A Better Experience" is what Apple users say when they mean "The Apple Experience". That phrase has no actual meaning anymore. That is why my battery is better. That is why the app store is better. If an Android phone was as locked down as an iPhone, the battery life difference would not be anything to write home about. The point is, Android users have the choice to use widgets and multi-task all day, to sip judiciously, or anywhere in between. As far as the app store, any third-party app that is worth implementing on the iPhone is worth implementing on Android. It will be in the developer's best interest to have their app in both places. The great thing with Android is as long as the dev wants his app running on Android (which he/she should), it can and will be. Having Apple vetting every app has not, in practice, protected iPhone users from anything but Google Voice, Google Maps and boobies. That is why when apple releases a front facing camera it actually does something. As long as you are using it to talk to someone with the exact same hardware and software as you. What do you think the front-facing camera on the EVO does? Besides, at least for me, the front-facing camera is not a deal breaker. I'm going to be getting a new phone sometime soon, and front-facing camera isn't on my list of "must haves". When you create hardware and software to work with each other you build a better experience. There may have been a point in the last three years where that was true, but as in anything else, there are economies of scale at play here, and Apple is facing an upward slope. As with home PCs in the eighties, Apple has essentially created a market (in this case, the consumer smart phone market) and have been at the forefront of everything in that market during its early years. And again, they are setting themselves up to lose any chance of market control just as the market is growing. If Apple does not modify their business model, they will never get majority market share in the smart phone/mobile market. Android will surpass iPhone long before Apple ever surpasses RIM. My opinion? The iPhone 4 was rushed to market. It wasn't ready. Manufacturing problems causing screen discoloration, an inherent flaw in the design of the antenna (yes, Virginia, there really is an iPhone reception problem), and super-strong glass that still shatters if dropped a few feet. Not to mention, all they brought to the table with this iteration of the iPhone is stuff everyone else is already doing. Multi-tasking "done right"? Please. It's letting more than one application run at the same time; and the rest of the world has been doing it for years. Front-facing camera was done by EVO first, and most major phones since the EVO have it as well. iPhone 4 was rushed to market because Apple can no longer keep up. When it's Apple against The World, The World is going to win. You can claim that Apple and Steve Jobs "are artists" and market share matters not to men (and women) of such vision. First, that would be a cop out (they're a for-profit company, of course they want as much market share as they can get), but second; I don't care how pretty the hardware and software are if they won't do what I want them to. I'm here to get shit done, and the iPhone menu bouncing when I reach the bottom doesn't help me with that. If I had to choose to be like Louis XIV and build Versailles, or be like Isaac Newton and invent effing Calculus while living in a barn, I'll choose the barn every time. At least they both had awesome wigs, though. Whoa wait! Did you just call me out? We can (and probably will) differ in our opinions for the rest of our lives on this subject, and that's fine. But every time you talk about it, I do not see someone who is willing to look at the whole picture. I have my qualms about the iPhone and Apple in general, but I can admit there is value for some people there. The UI is really good, the new 'retina display' (how I despise that name!) is a fantastic screen, and the iPhone has become an impressive mobile gaming platform. Even p00p, with his Windows Mobile Witchcraft, will point out the strengths in other platforms and the weaknesses in his own - even as he is declaring his preference. I think I'd like to hear you describe your opinion as an opinion instead of fact. The greatest irony in all of my words is that I have not had an Android phone for several months now. My G1 died a terrible tile-related death and I've been using a stopgap phone while I wait out my contract. Meh. Arguing sure is fun, though!
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Post by Mathazar on Jul 9, 2010 8:38:31 GMT -7
Jake's wall of text win! But I mean we were sitting in the living room chatting and he was changing out the battery. And then like 30 min later he was swapping it out again. It was nuts. WTF was he doing, taking over a small third world country? The fastest I've ever lost a charge on my phone was maybe the 3 day I had it. We went to African food for Chris's bday I think. Anyway my phone got passed around to 15 people for a solid 2 hours and it went from 50% to almost nothing. I thought I was never going to get it back from Nicci, she loved it.
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Post by p00p on Jul 9, 2010 10:24:48 GMT -7
I love arguing and I'm glad we're back at it! That's some pwnage right there, Jake.
One argument from the fruit that has always bugged me is this whole "When you create hardware and software to work with each other you build a better experience." crap. Seriously, no kidding. Can you state something more obvious? Apple lovers try to say that because they use a smaller set of hardware, their overall experience is better, and that's dumb because Linux and Windows create software tailored the same hardware.
Apple uses the same hardware architecture everyone else does in both their phones and computers. Just because Apple buys out an Arm processor and slaps an 'A4' tag on it, doesn't change it's architecture. Edit: The iPhone's hardware is typical smartphone architecture of the day (with a super sweet screen). There is NOTHING in that phone that makes it architecturally different than the typical smartphone released today. Ditto for their motherboards and hardware in their computers. It all uses the same architecture. So the argument falls short right off the bat. Besides, it's not hard to get OS x running on standard hardware and that just disproves the statement even more.
If that statement really had a leg to stand on, you'd expect better performance from OSX when you put windows 7 on Apple hardware. .. And you don't. The most silly thing about it is that Apple hardware is always behind the times, yet the "When you create hardware and software to work with each other you build a better experience." still get's thrown out there. They just BARELY have audio over HDMI on the latest macbook pros! lols, welcome to 2006.
Anyway, back to phones: Android is the new Microsoft Phone. Once the iPhone comes to Verizon, the 'droid market share will plummet and it will turn into the geek phone where everyone says it's better because it's customizable ,etc. -Just like windows mobile now. Hell, I'll get a droid soon enough just because windows phone 7 is going the way of the iPhone. The normals won't buy Android if they can get the iPhone.
Welcome to my world Android lovers.
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Post by Mathazar on Jul 9, 2010 11:00:13 GMT -7
Anyway, back to phones:Android is the new Microsoft Phone. Once the iPhone comes to Verizon, the 'droid market share will plummet and it will turn into the geek phone where everyone says it's better because it's customizable ,etc. -Just like windows mobile now. Hell, I'll get a droid soon enough just because windows phone 7 is going the way of the iPhone. The normals won't buy Android if they can get the iPhone. Welcome to my world Android lovers. I don't agree. Maybe it's out of a misplaced hope that people aren't just sheep who will buy the bright shiny thing the guy in the turtle neck told him too. I'd like to think that most people will weight the options of utility, function, total cost of ownership and form and choose what works best for them. In my little fantasy smart phone world consumers have gotten savvy enough to know that they need x number of things in a device for y cost and can do some shopping based on that. However part of me wants everyone to flock to the iPhone like sheep so that I might continue to mock them like the geek I am. I don't really like having the popular stuff. I enjoy feeling smugly superior because I know I have selected (or built) something that is the perfect match (or as close as is possible) for my needs. If Android started to dominate the market I'd have to take solace in my off beat hardware, and if not that then in the fact that my phone was rooted and could do something every else's didn't. But it wouldn't be as complete a personal nerd victory for me. I think I fairly successfully mask this petty geek snobbery from the world at large. I let that part of me out on the forums because I hope you can all see it for what it is. My inner small wounded dork needing to be better than the normals.
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Remy
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Post by Remy on Jul 9, 2010 11:22:24 GMT -7
I love the debates so no worries here, however, I can't believe you made me read all that text. I only have two things to add. 1. I read and test and use everything I can because my career and research depend on it so even though you have a hard time wrapping your head around my logic, it is as open as can be. 2. As long as humans are the users of software/hardware, experience will reign supreme. Don't kid yourself. "The Apple Experience" was, is and will continue to be the end goal of Android as long as Eric is at Google.
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Post by Mathazar on Jul 9, 2010 11:24:06 GMT -7
Back to the phones themselves for me as well now.
Clearly the EVO wouldn't work for Darin. He values battery life over 4g and a 4 inch screen. I think I would too if I had to swap batteries every 30min.
When I picked the Droid I decided the the extra weight was worth the hardware keyboard (I was wrong) and the better battery life.
When I got Marji her Incredible she offered to take my droid and let me have the new phone. But I really like my phone, it does exactly what I need it to do when I need it to do it. And I didn't want the extra sence UI layer that HTC adds. It slows down updates to the OS and I just don't like the look and feel.
My mom wants to get a smart phone now. She doesn't need the high end phone that I do, but a hardware keyboard would be good for her. We looked at the Eris and it's to small, but she likes the form factor of the screen and keyboard being right there without anything to slide out or flip open. But we're still investigating for her.
Gary at work also got a droid, but he waited until he knew a few people who had various androids and decided that the screen (and being able to see it in direct sunlight) was right for him.
I could go on, but the point is choices. With Android you have choices. With apple you get what your given, get get your apps only from the approved source heaven forbid you want to do something outside the "vision".
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