The Ethicist.. Is this advice ethical?

[p00p]

www.nytimes.com/2010/04/04/magazine/04FOB-ethicist-t.html

I saw the techdirt article on this yesterday and it made me stop and contemplate. I'm not quite sure I have a formed opinion of it yet. I really want to get back into some kind of reading habit and I'd love to do so digitally (if book reading software ever comes out with decent note taking abilities). -No, not on an iPad, but something similar, eventually.

I'm sure I'd find it hard to not download books from the darknets, but that doesn't necessarily mean I would think it was ethical just because I had a physical copy laying around. This is a hard one because I very much believe in the music analogy so my view on books should be similar, right? -So why am I still on the fence?

I'm not sure. What do you guys think?

The Consumerist hit the topic up today as well:
consumerist.com/2010/04/is-it-okay-to-download-a-pirated-copy-of-a-book-you-already-own.html

[Mathazar]

So the publishers believe that downloading a digital copy of a hard copy book you own is theft of IP (the TLDR as I understand it). I use that very thinking to argue the opposite. If the darknets copy is a theft of IP then when you buy the hard copy you aren't so much buying pages/binding/cover with words on them but a license of the IP who's delivery method is the pages/binding/cover. So for me you have not cheated the author.

I don't feel at all bad about downloading music that I own a tape or cd (or even vinyl) of. I frequently DL music to test drive it and then buy the used CD on amazon later if I keep it. I also have no guilt about DLing broadcast TV. If it was free OTA why should I pay for it digitally? Time shifting is another area where I have no guilt over something that a publisher would call piracy.

I do however have guilt about DLing a movie that I've paid to see in the theater. The difference for me is I paid for the theater experience and not a license of the movie.

I know that not many people share my views on these things. Most of my family/friends have no idea wtf I've even talking about at our gatherings now. I would like to take a moment to plug the LAN's again for the opportunity to get together with a group of people who understand the words that are coming out of my mouth. Most people still don't agree with me, but I don't have to try an explain my opinion. I love you guys.

[Jackdruid]

People have been railing lately against corporate greed. But publishers and artists deserve and need to get paid for what they do. If they don't, they'll stop doing it. Our money is our vote on what kind of entertainment we want.

Publishers, movie studios and record labels are taking risks and incurring costs by scouting for and cultivating new talent & promoting the same. Whether we like to admit it or not, the business aspect of entertainment is likely what made it possible for our favorite artists to create and for us to enjoy their work. The internet is changing the business model, but the old order will never fully die.

If an artist creates something that we want, they have earned the right to get paid fairly for that. The operative word is fairly. I agree with the links you provided that if you already have purchased an item, ethically you are in the clear. The law is another matter. The law has yet to catch up to the ethical reality of this situation.

What about the concept of reselling? It's not illegal or unethical, yet the publishers and authors get no money from it. I'm sure the publishers would love to see used book stores outlawed. Needless to say, that inability to resell is probably something the publishers are loving.

Taking it further, if I buy a used paperback for $3, does that then make it OK for me to DL the book for Kindle?

I read somewhere (though I'm having trouble finding it now) that nowadays we're not so much paying for the content as the format in which the content is delivered.

[Mathazar]

Apr 7, 2010 6:56:17 GMT -7 Jackdruid said:

I read somewhere (though I'm having trouble finding it now) that nowadays we're not so much paying for the content as the format in which the content is delivered.

A digital copy is an infinite good. It costs nothing (practically) to make a copy of a pdf. Everyone in the world with a way to store it could have a copy of the PDF without costing the author/publisher anything beyond the cost of the first. So the PDF format itself has no real value. A printed copy has a inherent value as it costs money to print/bind/distribute each copy.

So all we are paying for is the content and delivery method with a digital good. And if I've already paid for the content once (the hard copy of a book in this case) and my delivery method costs the artist and publisher nothing (the darknets) who have I injured?

[bl00k]

First thing that comes to mind reading Jack’s post is this song

Then I thought about; what if I d/l a book, read it, and then delete it and move on with my life? Isn’t that pretty much WTF you are doing at a library? So, I’m kind of joking, but really, how do libraries get to loan out books, cd’s, movies, etc. for freez0rs and not get sued by Metallica?

I’ve changed Ghandisar’s perception of ethics when it comes to music here at work. For those that don’t remember Ghandi works with me and is a gentleman of later years. I thought that he would like some Rancid songs so I put some mp3’s on a usb drive and loaded them onto his pc. He wasn’t super comfortable with that at first. Without any sort of authority whatsoever I told him that as a Rancid super fan I was totally cool with him having “pirated” copies of their music and that I didn’t feel we were “stealing” from the band. Of course that made him feel much better about it (read: LOL!!!) I further explained to him by asking “would you ever in a million years go to the store and buy a Rancid cd?” and of course his reply was No. Therefore I didn’t cheat them out of a sale because it was never going to be a sale in the first place. Is it theft though? It sure is, because he took the music without paying for it. Now here is the crazy part, after listening to the Rancid mp3’s I gave him, he actually did like it. He liked it enough to then purchase a Rancid cd used from me (I had 2 copies of one). In this scenario Rancid or the record label still didn’t get any money because he bought a used cd from me, but that person who never in a million years would walk into a store and buy a Rancid cd just might do that now.

I’ve also had similar issues as others have had with games and DRM. I went to the store and paid full price for C&C3 brought it home and installed it on my Vista 64bit machine and it did not work. I had previously played the demo and knew the game would run on my pc, but it wouldn’t now. The difference between the demo and retail: DRM. I ended up having to d/l a crack to play my legit game. Frustrating to say the least.

[p00p]

Yeah Math, one of the great things about communities like ours is that we can relate and understand each other much better than any of the Normals. I swear the movie Idiocracy is starting to look more and more like prophecy than comedy. And I actually enjoy being around people with different views than mine. It helps me better understand/form my own opinions and convictions, improving my perspective. More of why I heart & appreciate y'all.

+1 for another LAN soon. I use LAN loosely, of course. We could just make it a RLANp (real life area network party?) -and just bring computers out of habit, i guess.

I get wordy here.. skip to the bottom for the TL;DR summary if you don't feel like reading.

Here are my thoughts:

'Ethics' are by definition, subjective, right? So I would argue that there may not be a right or wrong answer. I'm just curious to see if I can figure out a right or wrong direction. The Law portion of this quagmire is a beast in it's own right, I'm not going to attempt to go there even though it's a big part of the issue itself. The corporate greed thing I understand, but I also dismiss the lions share of people's reasoning for it. We, the people, just like to see whatever benefits us most and tend to have fairly narrow scope. Like you said Jack, it really boils down to what artists deserve for their work.

My mental wall on the issue comes from going back several years to the VHS days and when DVD's became more popular. For me, I've always treated digital copies similar to phisical ones in the sense of 'sharing'. Now, I've done, and still do, more than my fair share of sharing (and by sharing, I mean stealing) things from the internets. But I know what I'm doing. I can't really justify any of it to myself except for music that I own, Tv shows or software evaluations.

This graphic bugs me:


Just because it's easier to reproduce, does that really mean it's not thievery? Maybe it's just trying to better define the terms, I dunno. The graphic may not intentionally justify piracy but it sure insinuates it (to me).

bl00k, your comment on the library vs dwn a book and delete.. is a pretty good one. .. it's still making me think. As far as music goes, this seems much more easily defined since music has naturally moved from spinning format to digital, but the experience remains largely the same between formats. Maybe books are doing the same then.. Like Math mentions, the digital format has no real value, we're paying for the content. But the format has something to do with how we experience the content, right? So does that affect it's value?

Back in the day, if I owned the VHS and wanted a DVD, I'd go out and buy the DVD. I don't think I ever assumed I had the rights to the DVD and should get it for free. -But that was a physical copy. If I downloaded it and burn it, I always assumed I was in the wrong and never thought about justifying it to myself either (ethically, or otherwise). I wouldn't put it in the same boat as walking into walmart, shoving a DVD down my pants and walking out with it. But I'd say downloading it is at least on the same side of the river. Using the mentality of the NYtimes author, I could almost justify downloading the DVD if I own the VHS. ..So if I own the DVD, am I in the right(ethically) to rip the Blu-ray and keep it too, then? For some strange reason, it almost feels like that'd be more OK than the VHS vs DVD example. But I'm wondering if it's just because we're so used to having things our way in the digital world that it's wearing down our good senses.

I think I see books vs ebooks like I see VHS vs DVD. It's not a perfect comparison, but that's all I have. Of course, words are words. They're the same words in pixels as they are on paper... Or are they? VHS is not DVD and DVD is not Blu-ray. I could argue that you're paying for the better quality/experience in the dvd scenario. But I could prolly argue something similar to ebook vs book in one way or another as well. What's the difference between hardcover and paperback in respect to book vs ebook? I mean, if you own the hardcover should it come with a free paperback or vice-versa?

meh, I still don't know. And it's not like I'm searching for anything other than a thought provoking conversation anyway. And you guys always deliver when it comes to that

TL;DR summary: I'm leaning towards the thought of it being unethical to assume you own digital rights to a book just because you own it in the physical world. But I still don't really know. ..or care all that much either. I brought this topic up out of curiosity more than it being any current ethical struggle of my own.

[b0lg]

I think you should get a digital copy of a book you buy because it starts off that way. If they don’t want to have stories in an easy to share format perhaps they should use pen and paper or a typewriter to create it.

If the publisher or author chooses not to provide it for you I don’t see an issue with making one yourself or downloading it from another source. I put e-books in the same category as the cheap paper backs. Actual published books being a high quality item of artwork in it’s own right. I bought a $200 set of LotR books for that reason. The books are a piece of art skillfully crafted a joy to hold and read from, worth every penny.

And you know the best part? They will last much longer than any digital copy, or DVD movie because the hardware/software I need to read the text and render the visual effects was freeware given to me at birth.

[Grimmie]

I have friends that we borrow each others books to read all the time I have recently read (last 2 months) 8 different books. Would that be a problem too?? I did not pay for the book, yet I still cover to covered it.. Is this piracy? I know I am a dark person.. I always will be. I mean lets face it if I had the money to buy the stuff then I would but I dont..